Ali bin Abi Thalib
“Setiap pinjaman yang membawa keuntungan adalah riba”
Umar bin Khattab
"Ada tiga hal, yang seandainya Rasulullah menerangkan mengenai mereka dengan jelas, akan lebih aku sukai ketimbang dunia dan seisinya, yaitu tentang kalala, riba, dan khilafa" (Sunan Ibnu Majah, Bab tentang Warisan. Vol 4.)
Mengapa yaa dua orang yang hidup di jaman yang sama.
bisa punya batasan definisi (interpretasi) yang berbeda?
edit: Ucapan Ali bukanlah hadis, melainkan hasil ijtihad. Saya membenarkan dengan hati bila pendapat Ali ini dalam context pinjaman untuk membantu biaya opname ortu teman. tetapi q merasa "tidak pas" dalam context investor/pemegang saham.
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Alip
- Riba Nasiah yang mutlak kena hukum haram tidak dilakukan dengan cara menyebutkan tambahan di awal.
- Negosiasi dilakukan setelah hutang jatuh tempo
- Pemberi hutang tidak pernah menyebutkan di awal bahwa hutang ini akan digandakan kalau jatuh tempo nanti si penerima hutang tidak sanggup membayar.
>sepakat.
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Mbah Pasingsingan
Tentang loss and profit sharing
emangnya klo bank non-syariah jika krediturnya mengalami kerugian dlm usahanya
bank-nya tidak ikut menanggung kerugian? (kasus kredit macret)
>setau saya klo bukan PNS(pengusaha yang butuh modal untuk beli alat produksi misalnya) pinjam ke bank, harus ninggal sertifikat tanah, BPKP mobil atau surat berharga yang lain.
Pernah dulu itu rumah dan perusahaan paman q hampir disita oleh bank terkait utang piutang.
Sedang PNS cukup ninggal SK.
Tapi klo di tempat aq di karenakan gaji langsung masuk ke Rekening Bank “Sayap Merah”.
Hutang yaa tinggal hutang aja. (gak pake nyekolahkan SK segala)
Gak perlu persyaratan ribet.
Asal masih ada sisa gaji yang isa dipotong, insyAllah (pasti) cair.
Mengenai kasus kredit macret yang di bail out pake uang pajak rakyat, ndak tau deh aq.
Edit: sungguh aneh bila dalam memberi pinjaman bank sampe mengalami kerugian. dikarenakan peminjam 'lak menjaminkan sertifikat asetnya yg bisa disita lalu dijual oleh bank.
Sedangkan kalau bank rugi dalam usahanya main di pasar saham saya bisa memaklumi.
Loss and profit sharing
Markkula menawarkan jaminan kredit hingga $250.000 dengan imbalan menjadi pemegang sepertiga saham. Apple akan menjadi badan hukum, dan dia bersama Jobs, serta Wozniak, masing-masing akan memiliki saham sebesar 26%. Saham sisanya akan disimpan untuk menarik investor di masa mendatang. Mereka bertiga bertemu di pondok dekat kolam renang milik Markkula dan menandatangani perjanjian tersebut. “Menurutku, kemungkinan besar Mike (Markkula) tidak akan pernah melihat uang $250.000 itu lagi, dan aku sangat terkesan karena dia bersedia mengambil resiko itu,” kenang Jobs.
Saus:
Steve Jobs by Walter Isaacson, hal.100
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Hadiah?
klo hadiah mengapa dlm riwayat itu pemberiannya dikaitkan dng hutang-piutang?
bukankah nabi nota bene seorang pedagang?
>Iyaa benar Nabi seorang pedagang.
Aq menginterpretasikan atas perasaan sukarela, ucapan terima kasih karena telah dibantu.
Tidak terpikir untuk mendekati dengan pola pikir pengusaha atau pedagang.
Btw itu Nabi pas pinjam untuk kebutuhan konsumtif misal “biaya anak masuk ke perguruan tinggi”
atau utang piutang selaku penanam modal vs pelaku usaha. Just kidding. ;D
PROPHET HIMSELF PAID "AN EXTRA AMOUNT"
In the Sahih Al-Bukhari, under Hadith number 3:579 (in ALIM CD), in the printed version of Al-Bukhari Volume 3, Book 43 (The Book of Loans), Hadith Number is 2394. Here one can read the Arabic and English Text. Narrated by Jabir bin Abdullah it is recorded that the Prophet repaid his debt that he owed Jabir plus he gave him "an extra amount". The scholars who do advocate "zero tolerance" explain; A borrower is permitted to pay an "extra amount" to the principal sum borrowed, while repaying his debt, provided it is given of his own free will and is not stipulated as a condition of the borrowing. Such a payment is neither Interest nor Riba.
Saus:
ht***tp://mostmerciful.com/riba-revised.htm
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---------- Post Merged at 07:52 AM ----------
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Cha_n
Kalau pengertian riba saklek dengan definisinya cak Purba, ya berarti selesai pembahasannya.
Definisi Riba tidaklah sesempit sebagaimana yang ditulis Pak Purba.
Alih-alih saya terfikir bahwa Riba adalah pembeda antara transaksi jual beli yang boleh dilakukan dengan transaksi jual beli yang dilarang untuk dilakukan.
Transaksi yang boleh dilakukan = jual beli.
Transaksi yang dilarang untuk dilakukan = riba.
Saya terfikir seperti itu setelah membaca hadis berikut ini + kupasannya(catatan) oleh Dr. Omar Farooq.
Sabda Rasulullah saw:
Janganlah kamu jual emas dengan emas, perak dengan perak, gandum dengan gandum, syair (padi belanda) dengan syair, tamar dengan tamar, garam dengan garam, kecuali sama jenis dan kadarnya dan sama-sama tunai. Barang siapa yang menambah atau meminta tambah, maka sesungguhnya ia telah melakukan riba.
(HR Bukhari dan Ahmad)
saus:
quran.bacalah.net (floating window tafsir Al Baqarah 275)
>catatan perihal hadist di atas oleh Dr. Omar Farooq
... . not only that this is not a mutawatir hadith, but also that the hadith narration has significant discrepancy and there seems to be a statement from a companion of the Prophet that has been mixed up as a statement from the Prophet.
There is one other problem, and it's a rational one. In these hadiths, the Prophet seems to prohibit barter transactions, specifying five/six commodities, unless such transactions are on the spot and alike in quality and/or quantity. However, who in the world did or does exchange an ounce of gold of exact quantity and of same quality? What would be the rationale for exchanging a pound or kilo of barley with another pound or kilo of the same quality? If the orthodox position or understanding is considered valid, here it seems that the Prophet has permitted a kind of transaction that people have no reason to engage in. Usually, a permission involves something that people usually do or need. In this case, none of those possibilities apply. An equal amount of the same quality of gold will be exchanged only by people without any sense. How in the world the Prophet would permit something that people cannot be expected to sensibly engage in? This is clearly a trivialization of the Prophet's guidance, especially if the Qur'anic injunction about riba is dilinked from the rationale/wisdom (hikmah) - that is, zulm or injustice/exploitation - specifically mentioned in the Qur'an.
That takes us to hadiths pertaining to some allegedly prohibited transactions that took place in the context of Khaybar.
# H-1 (the first one)
V.b. From Abu Sa'id and Abu Hurayrah: A man employed by the Prophet, peace be on him, in Khaybar brought for him janib[dates of very fine quality]. Upon the Prophet's asking him whether all the dates of Khaybar were such, the man replied that this was not the case and added that "they exchanged a sa[a measure] of this kind for two or three [of the other kind]". The Prophet, peace be on him, replied, "Do not do so. Sell [the lower quality dates] for dirhams and then use the dirhams to buy janib. [When dates are exchanged against dates] they should be equal in weight." [Sahih al-Bukhari, Kitab al-Buyu, Babidhaaradabay'atamrin bi tamrinkhayrunminhu, Volume 3, Book 38, Number 499; also Muslim; Muwatta, #31.12.20 and Nasa'i).
# H-2 (the second)
V.c. From Abu Sa'id: Bilal brought to the Prophet, peace be on him, some barni [good quality] dates whereupon the Prophet asked him where these were from. Bilal replied, "I had some inferior dates which I exchanged for these - two sas for a sa." The Prophet said, "Oh no, this is exactly riba. Do not do so, but when you wish to buy, sell the inferior dates against something [cash] and then buy the better dates with the price you receive." [Muslim, Kitab al-Musaqat, Bab al-ta'amimithlan bi mithlin, #3871; also Musnad Ahmad].
First, notice the discrepancy between two hadiths about the same incident. In the first one there is no reference to riba at all, while the second one specifically makes a connection to riba. Also, the wording is quite different. In the first one, it says: "Do not do so. Sell [the lower quality dates] for dirhams and then use the dirhams to buy janib. [When dates are exchanged against dates] they should be equal in weight." In the second one, it says: "when you wish to buy, sell the inferior dates against something [cash] and then buy the better dates with the price you receive."
Obviously, even though the narrators are apparently quoting the Prophet, they are actually narrating an incident in their own words. There are other reports of the same incident that don't make any connection with riba at all. Indeed, these hadiths are not about any prohibition. No definitive conclusion, especially from legal viewpoint, can be derived from these hadiths in question. Dr. Mohammed Fadel (Faculty of Law, University of Toronto) has aptly identified it as "prudential regulation."
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---------- Post Merged at 07:54 AM ----------
We have already explained above how problematic is using those riba-related hadiths in the context of Khaybar. In regard to the above hadith, as Allamah Suhail has capably demonstrated, none of the hadith pertaining to this particular incident or transaction relates in any way to riba. The rationale for this hadith and the instruction it contains is quite simple. Often in barter transactions, the initiating party of interest might be at a disadvantage and may not realize the full market value of the product he or she trying to exchange. Selling the item in possession for cash and then using the cash to purchase the item of interest would generally yield proper market value. This has nothing to do with riba. Allamah Suhail explains:
"Khaybar was a centre of Jews who happened to be very rich. So when Khaybar was conquered Muslims got a lot of booty which included silver and gold ware. Muslim mujahids were used to a simple way of life, they did not know how to use those silver and gold wares, so they wanted to sell those wares for a trifle and get cash. Many people in fact sold at a price much lower than the actual value, that is, silver wares and ornaments weighing one uqiyah were sold by them to Jews for two or three pennies, whereas the weight of one uqiyah is several times more than two or three dinars.
When the Holy Prophet came to know that the mujahids were carelessly selling the booty, and that too to the conquered and deceitful Jews, he ordered that the God-given wealth should not be squandered like that, that at least they should not sell for a price less than that of its weight." [pp. 57-58]
In such context, separating necklace (with gemstones) and gold is expected to fetch better value for the Muslim sellers. By the way, these hadiths are not mutawatir either and thus do not yield certainty of knowledge.
Saus:
Riba, Interest and Six Hadiths:
Do We Have a Definition or a Conundrum?
Dr. Mohammad Omar Farooq
(Associate Professor of Economics and Finance, Upper Iowa University). June 2006.
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>Uraian Dr. Mohammad Omar Farooq walaupun do not yield certainty of knowledge perihal batasan definitif Riba tetapi -bagi orang awam seperti saya- telah memberi gambaran bahwa ternyata pengertian riba adalah tidak sempit terbatas pada pinjam dan meminjamkan uang.
---------- Post Merged at 07:56 AM ----------
Tapi bisa jadi bahwa riba adalah pembatas antara “transaksi halal” dengan transaksi unfair, unethical or immoral yang diharamkan.
Unfair dan Immoral karena membodohi orang careless misalnya. Yang menukar gelang emas 10 gram dengan dinar yang jika ditimbang beratnya cuma 3 gram misalnya.
Atau klo mengutip Abdullah Yusuf Ali, riba adalah suatu jalan perdagangan yang terlarang dikarenakan mencakup bentuk pengambilan keuntungan secara berlebih-lebihan.
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